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Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:03 am


Hi,

I know the title is a little bit controversial. :?
But, I wander if there is a way to create a "3D" imaging device for one eyed people.

I am studying in electrical engineering field and I hope that a technology can be developed to create a device that can produce 3D effects that can be detected by a single eye.

As far as I know, most of the actual 3D imaging technology are based on the binocular principle.
Here is a list of the technology I know :
- 3D environment projected on a flat surface (As when you play a game on your computer or animation films on standard theatres.)
- anaglyph (RED/BLUE (or Red/Green) glasses )
- Light Polarity shift ( Polarised glasses (slightly grey glasses) )
- Cross-eyed (as "Magic eyes" pictures)
- Bi-Screens ( Glasses with one small screen per eye)
- holographic images (used on some stickers and security bills)

(If anyone know any other technology, please feel free to contribute)


First of all, a little bit of science, (I will try to make it easy to understand, but if you don't, feel free to ask questions :?: ... There are no stupid questions, the only questions that are stupid are those that aren't asked )

3D perception (ocular (eye(s)) as well as aural (ear(s)) and sensitive (finger(s), skin))


3D perception means 3 Dimensions to perceive.
To perceive the 3 dimensions we need, at least, 3 spacial references.
(A spacial reference is a way to detect a dimension that your body can detect. For example, if we take a pencil in a hand, we can know it is long because our hand is not able to touch both the tip and the end. The hand here is a reference. If we look at a 2D picture, one reference is the horizontal axis ( also called the X axis ) and the other reference is the vertical axis (Y axis). With these two reference we can see if an object is big if it use a lot of place in the image larger we can also see if the object is larger or taller than an other one.)

Let explore the spacial reference used in the technologies listed in the beginning of the post.
3D environment projected on a flat surface: The two firsts references are the same than in the 2D picture example, the X and Y axis.
The third spacial reference (depth or Z axis) come directly from our imagination :idea: . In fact we are able to "see" the depth of the image, partly because we have an idea of the size of the objects in the reel world and partly because we can compare objects of known size to see how far they are from each other and from the frame of the image.Here is an example:
Image
If I told that CAR A is the same size than CAR B. Witch one is the nearest ? ... CAR A right ?
What if I told you that CAR B is only a small toy ? ... Hum ... tricky ! What happened here is that I suggested that there are no available reference between the two cars, therefore our brain can't see it 3D.
For people who have only one eye, like me and you or someone you know, it is probably the main way we can "see 3D" real world. From my personal experience, I noticed that, since my accident, I increased a lot the speed of analysing the size of objects to get their positions.


Stereoscopic effect (Anaglyph, Light Polarity shift, Cross-eyed and Bi-Screens devices) : The first two references are also the same as for 2D picture.
The third spacial reference is in the angle between the two eyes needed to mentally "merge" the image of each eye. If the object is far, the two eyes will point most likely in the same direction. If the object is near, the two eyes will have to change angle to point within the object to merge the images.
Image
Image
Once trained (as baby for most two eyed people), the brain associate the eyes angle to a distance on the depth axis.
In 3D movies and pictures, there are two images, one for each eye. The position of objects in the images are more or slightly different depending on how depth they are in the picture. These differences forces the eyes to change their angle to merge the two images. Sometimes the two images are completely distinct (as in the case of distinct crossed eyes and two screen devices) : (Can anyone tell me if it does looks like 3d cubes? I can't actually "see" them P ( , the images are computer generated.)
Image
But most of the time both images are merged together:
Image
In that case, depending on the technology, a special pair of glasses are needed to ensure that each image find it's way to the good eye. If the glasses are removed, the image become incoherent or blurred.

Holographic images: The first two references are also the same as for all the others. The third spacial reference is time ... time ...as a dimension ... it sounds a little bit nerd ... I will explain. In holographic effect as on stickers, we need to move it to actually see the 3D effect, as if we where really moving around the hologram. From personal experience, I had found that it was easier to evaluate the distance of an object if it is moving than if it is fixed.
Moving is defined as changing position through time. The more you are moving fast, the more you change position through the same amount of time, let say a second. As the object is moving, our brain can take multiple different "snap shots" from different viewing angles of the object, and therefore analysing its size and position.
Image


Spacial reference with sounds: With the ears, there are also many spacial references: Difference between ears of sound level, difference of phase, difference of delay, difference of echo and sound bouncing into the environment ...ect. To be able to locate precisely the source of the sound, any of these spacial reference, alone, are not sufficient and we have to combine them. (Try panning sound from left to right into headphones ... you can't tell if the sound is coming from the front or the back. up or down.)

Spacial reference with touch: In order to detect 3D textures, we also need to have three spacial reference. In that case it is the X and Y position and the difference of pressure between elements that allow us to detect 3D.



OK, that's enough science :oops: ... I hope you enjoy it, or at least understand something out of this :roll: . If you have questions, you find any false information or want to add a little more, feel free to post it.

Coming back to the main subject... Is there a way to create a device that can help people who lost eye to see 3D stuffs like movies and pictures?
To do such device, we need the three spacial references. We already have the X and Y axis, we need one more, and that is the toughest part.
We could use the time, but all objects always need to move. We could use maybe use the focus ... the eye have to focus in a different way according to the distance of the object ... but what append if you hare myopic or stigmatic ? In anyway, this is an open discussion. If you have any ideas, even if you are not sure about it ... the more idea we get, the highest are the chances that we can find the best solution. In any way, I offer my knowledge in electronic and programming if needed.

Thanks for your time reading this! (I know its long and probably full of mistakes :wink: )
I hope to have your comments.

Etienne


Last edited by patech on Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:38 am

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WOW!! Etienne; sorry way over my head!! Good Luck; cheers Vera
Read your post in introductions and computer shut down; a big warm welcome to the forum and I'm sure you will get a lot of info and some ideas from the other technos;
cheers Vera

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Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:41 pm


My sister said she can see a "3d cube" on the screen... About "percepting 3d", I've read in some science magazine that there's a blind boy that can walk normally, and even skate, using his sound perception. :o



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Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:08 pm


WOW! I have always wondered the same thing -- how can we possibly devise something so that monocular people can watch 3D movies. Nice to know I wasn't the only one pondering this. Thanks for the science aspects, too. Even though I don't quite understand them, they were really interesting to read.

DJ



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Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:25 pm

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Interesting article.

I remember a couple of years ago I went to see a short 3-D film with some friends...

I said no to the 3-D glasses, to which the lady handing them out gave me a strange look

All I can say was that it was a painful experience. Anyone who tries to watch a 3-D movie without the glasses is going to leave with a headache...

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Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:46 pm


barrysdeej wrote:
WOW! I have always wondered the same thing -- how can we possibly devise something so that monocular people can watch 3D movies. Nice to know I wasn't the only one pondering this. Thanks for the science aspects, too. Even though I don't quite understand them, they were really interesting to read.

DJ


I see a video of this guy ... very cool... he emits a kind of "klick" sound very fast and is able to hear how it is bouncing off objects, walls ... He is even able to do bike tricks on the road ... without getting hit by cars.

For sure the sound help us to make a 3D mental perception of our surrounding ... the main problem with 3D movies is that the sound effects are not always well recorded.
For two eyed people, it doesn't matters because most of the 3D mental perception is based on the image they see. They do not notice that the sound they heard doesn't come exactly from the same direction than the object they see. In many cases the sound is too loud or not balanced enough to hear the difference.
For one eyed people, (well in my case at least) it can be noticeable that the sound perception doesn't fit with the image, the echoes doesn't fit with the room size, the voices sometimes does sound natural. For blind people, it might be very hard to figure out what kind environment is the movie just by the sound.

I had some ideas to create a real 3D sound card to recreate the most 3D environment in movies or games. I don't have the knowledge to do it right now, but maybe it could be a great project at the end of my study.

If we mix the two, well not yet existing, technology ( the one eye 3d viewer and the 3d sound card) maybe we will really be able to watch 3D movies as close as possible from the reality.



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Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:53 pm


fairie16 wrote:
Interesting article.

I remember a couple of years ago I went to see a short 3-D film with some friends...

I said no to the 3-D glasses, to which the lady handing them out gave me a strange look

All I can say was that it was a painful experience. Anyone who tries to watch a 3-D movie without the glasses is going to leave with a headache...


lol, I hope I had seen her look. Maybe it's a better idea to take the glasses ... at least they will filter one of the images out off the two merged and probably blurry images.



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Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:54 pm

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I can remember these types of films, Jaws and Alien, I actually saw them through the 3d glasses and wasn't impressed, I preferred just watching it in colour :D

Good luck with the studies though, I'd be a more than willing guinea pig for ya :D :D

Fantastically interesting post , welcome to the forum

Andy

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Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:52 pm


Great post and something that has been another horror story of another major thing I enjoyed that I can't participate in anymore. I remember when hurricane Floyd hit Florida many years ago, the exact same time I and the ex had a week vacation at Disney World. We went to Universal Studios and I was ecstatic about the Terminator 2 3D ride though I knew it wouldn't work for me,I didn't want to deprive my ex, so we went. I at first put on my glasses along with everyone else then took them off and tried to live through my ex's experience. I stared at her facial expressions and tried to feel some sort of fun from her happiness and it helped but I was still very saddened. I gazed around the room at all the people having fun and I teared wishing I could have participated. :(

In my youth, 3D movies were something I enjoyed very much as a few came my way as well. I heard of such a technology years ago, don't know who or what, but they were working on a way to see 3D without the glasses. I hoped that this might help someone in my case but I don't thing it was designed for that purpose. I do want to thank you for your post and addressing something that someone here might be able to help with. I'm still amazed at technology in many areas of today yet they still can't help someone that's had total eye removal with the lack of being able to regrow nerves. It's like if you don't have the 'hardware' left behind, your totally screwed. I'm pretty cynical about the whole thing and I would love to be in my 40's not my 80's before they give me sight again.

Never the less, thanks for posting this and do hope someone might contribute and help in this venture.

Ronnie



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Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:02 am

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Hi. I read most of that but let me just say this, I work in the I.T. field and though I don't dabble in the graphics arena, I work with many who do. One of the guys at my office is a 3D graphics genius and he showed me a trick the other day that would help me show others what monocular vision is really like. It was really cool. I was able to show my boyfriend and my kids and just whoever else wanted to know what it was like to have no depth perception. Reading what you wrote up there, my question to you would be, why don't you invent this? You seem to have the knowledge to do it. If 3D visiualization can be created for the binocular, it can be done for the monocular. Hook up with someone who writes 3D graphics games and go for it! I think that would be awesome.

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Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:56 am


RobinM wrote:
Hi. I read most of that but let me just say this, I work in the I.T. field and though I don't dabble in the graphics arena, I work with many who do. One of the guys at my office is a 3D graphics genius and he showed me a trick the other day that would help me show others what monocular vision is really like. It was really cool. I was able to show my boyfriend and my kids and just whoever else wanted to know what it was like to have no depth perception. Reading what you wrote up there, my question to you would be, why don't you invent this? You seem to have the knowledge to do it. If 3D visiualization can be created for the binocular, it can be done for the monocular. Hook up with someone who writes 3D graphics games and go for it! I think that would be awesome.

Could he do the trick the other way and show someone with monocular vision how it is to have binocular vision? I was ALWAYS curious about that.



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Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:17 am

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Rafael, I don't know but if I can catch him at work tomorrow I'll ask him. I'm very curious about this. I should hook him and the guy who posted this up and see what they can come up with. If they could do it, I could see this being used to help us with glasses or something of the sort for our good eye, not just movies. :)

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Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:39 am


Robin,
What was the trick your co-worker showed you? I know that just closing one eye for a minute or two doesn't seem to gve others the real idea.

Very interesting topic! I have no memory of binocular vision, but at least I never seemed to be as afraid as others at the 3-D horror films!
DeAnna



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Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:27 pm


Wow, great topic!!!!

Soon many more films will be in 3D. Many theatres are converting to this technology right now. I've been worried about this, because not only could it make one-eyed people feel they're missing out on the fun, they could actually end up having to avoid going to the movies entirely. It really makes me sad.

The one good thing is that if the movie uses the clear 3D glasses (versus the red/green ones) it's supposedly not bad for one-eyed people and you can at least see the movie quite nicely in 2D without getting a headache. I'm quoting someone else here, so I could be wrong, but a reliable source told me she closed one eye for long periods of time at the Hannah Montanna 3D movie and it was not "painful" to watch, just 2D.



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Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:48 pm


Even with the green/red glasses, it makes the film more watchable using them while not using them results in a headache so I would always use whatever is there. But I know what Ronnie means about feeling totally left out. I watched one of these films and everyone was oohing and ahhing and I felt like a total outsider.



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Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:01 pm


Before all this happened I used to love 3D movies. We saw Mickey's Philharmagic and a Bug's Life at Disney World (thank God) before my girl lost her eye and she still remembers what it's like to see 3D movies. She says she "can't wait" to see another 3D movie. Now something that used to make me happy actually makes me want to cry. I don't even want to see them anymore because SHE can't.

But the sensible side of me says that it's just a special effect. So what if you can't see Miley Cyrus's microphone in 3D? Or darts coming toward you or whatever it is. As long as the movie has a good story, etc., it can still be enjoyable, as long as you can experience it in 2D and not all squiggly-horrible like 3D movies used to be for monocular people. Now someone please hand me a Kleenex. I can't believe there are wars going on, almost 4000 US soldiers killed in Iraq, and I'm literally crying about damned 3D movies.



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Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:26 pm

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DeAnna (and anyone else who wants to know), I don't know if I can explain the trick like this but I'll try. It's really quite a simple little thing. Do you ever have a problem seeing curbs? For example, you are coming out of a store and you see the sidewalk and you see the connecting parking lot but you really can't see that the sidewalk is higher than the parking lot? That's of course because of depth perception (or lack of it). Also, do you ever notice that you can be looking at 2 things that appear to be the exact same size but in reality one is bigger than the other? These are things he used in his trick.

1)Take 2 sheets of plain white 8.5 x 11 paper. Fold one of them so that it is 2/3 the size of the other. Have someone else hold one in one hand and one in the other holding their arms straight out in front of them. Tell them to close one eye tight. They need to move the hand that's holding the smaller sheet in towards themself until both sheets of paper appear to be the same size while looking at them through one eye. When they open their other eye, they will see the size difference but when they close the one eye, they look the same. Of course, with the one eye closed, that's how we all see these things and with both eyes open, that's how they see these things. Just a simple demostration that will show the differences in our vision and theirs.

2)Same demonstration except this time have them hold the 2 sheets of paper side by side and flat so that they are looking down at them. The papers should be flat, like they are laying on the floor....I hope that makes sense. This time have them move the smaller one up towards their face until they both appear to be the same size (with one eye closed). With the one eye closed, they can't see that one sheet of paper is higher off the ground than the other. This is what curbs look like to me (and probably you). With both eyes open, they can see that one is higher off the ground than the other.

I know this is simple and of course it doesn't explain it all but it did "open the eyes" (no pun intended) of the ones in my life who wanted to understand.

I hope this helps.

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Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:30 am

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Hi Guys; WOW!! I think I must live in a cocoon; before I lost my eye I saw one 3-d movie (and hated it anyway) I didn't think they still made them????? sorry getting old .....
Anyway; Etieene; my hubby is into virtual reality (I.T) he was a pilot and now trains students to be pilots ..... HE IS SOOOO into this sort of thing (Nickname:Gadget Man) ..... he read your first post and was sooooooooooo excited and understanding the theory he is enthused ........ he will get back to you ....... cheers Vera

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Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:25 am


Different paper size ... excellent idea! ... Usually, when I want to explain the "felling" of having only one eye, I simply put my two indexes (fingers) pointing one to the other, and I place them about 1.5 cm (~ 1/2") from each other, then I ask to the person in front of me, which is about 1 meter away, to close one eye. While he close it, I move slightly one of my finger toward or away from him and I ask for which one is the closest one ... they usually can't find out.

The funniest thing about this trick is that, if they do the same, I am able to actually see their nearest finger, let say about 80 to 90 % of the time... even if the distance difference is as small as 1.5 cm. It seems like if I am able to detect very small differences of size but most of it come with the focus difference. ( To focus is the ability to select at witch distance we want to concentrate our view. When you look at a far object and put an object at about 30 cm (1 feet) from our face, this object will look blurry until we look at it. In the opposite, if we look to the near object, all the objects behind will look blurry. )

From experience, I found that my focus ability really increased since I lost my eye. I can now focus very faster than before ( being able to change my view from a near to a far object, and the opposite, faster. I am also able to notice very small changes of focus ( being able to notice very small difference off distance between objects).

Does anyone noticed the same thing?

---------------------
RobinM wrote:
Hook up with someone who writes 3D graphics games and go for it! I think that would be awesome.


My brother study in 3D animation (for films and games) ... I think he already told me about a funny device. They use it to have an idea of how to transpose the 3D reality to a 2D universe as a computer or movie theater. ... Maybe one eyed people would be good in 3D animation, because we already see the world having much less dimensions. (Notice here that I'm am not ready to say that we don't actually see the world in only two dimensions. the reel world is not exactly as a picture, there are differences on focus, on how the objects are moving, sizes ... that is why I have hope that we can find or invent a technology that will be able to reproduce at least the small amount of 3D we can see).

I think that the object he bring takes one point of view from one lens (like people with one eye actually do) and then split the same image to both eyes of the person. When persons with two eyes see the same image in both eyes, their brain does not try to cross-over the eyes to "merge" the images, and therefore it analyse all the objects in the image as if they where very far, even if they are actually close.
Image
The "viewed object" is the position the two eyed person think they see all the objects thought the device. In fact some of the objects are so far. As if they lost the third dimension.

I wander if such device can work upside down to
Rafael- wrote:
do the trick the other way and show someone with monocular vision how it is to have binocular vision?


--------------------
ZDN wrote:
but a reliable source told me she closed one eye for long periods of time at the Hannah Montanna 3D movie and it was not "painful" to watch, just 2D.

I strongly believe that your source is right. The 3D movies (green&red or those that are in full colour (using reversed polarized glasses technology)) are based on the principle that the right and left images are shown on the screen merged (mixed) together.
Image
The glasses are used to block the "right" image from been seen by the left eye and the "left" image from been seen by the right eye. If you don't use the glasses, both eyes will see both images at the same time. If the images are not the same (which is always the case in 3d movies ... well maybe not as different than square and triangle as in the picture ;-), it is just for demonstration purpose.) Since the images are not seen just by the eye they are supposed to be seen, the brain try to analyse this "weird picture" and it will get painful no mater the number off eye you have.
If you have only on eye and wear the glasses, you will see only one of the two images on the screen ... which is a lot more easy for your brain ;-).


Last edited by patech on Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:30 pm


Robin and others,
Thanks for such interesting information!
DeAnna



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